It is just so unbelievable. Once again John McCain is making someone, in this case a well-known non-profit group named ACORN, completely evil just so he can win. Not that most people are falling for it.
But OOOOPS! John…just a few years ago you told ACORN how wonderful they are. Is their only fatal flaw that they heart Obama now?
If you’re curious, check out the video of John McCain speaking to ACORN at Spin Cycle:
Video: McCain at ACORN
By the way…ACORN may have hired some people who registered voters improperly, but unless Mickey Mouse, for instance, is actually allowed to vote, there is no gain for Obama. And who knows? Mickey may prefer McPalin – he always was a sucker for a gal in red lipstick.
October 14, 2008 at 10:29 pm
ACORN — The Voter Fraud Organization
I love how John McCain can support a SUPPOSEDLY non-partisan organization, but when it comes to light that organization is fraudulent and massively tainting the Presidential Election, then all you nitwits can do is show pictures of them together and think you’ve dismissed the charges against ACORN. The charges against ACORN have only just begun so get used to it.
http://mariestacey.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/acorn-the-voter-fraud-organization/
October 14, 2008 at 10:36 pm
“Mickey may prefer McPalin – he always was a sucker for a gal in red lipstick.”
Brilliant.
October 14, 2008 at 10:37 pm
mariestacey…
This is a blog where people are expected to be civil to each other. I welcome opposite views…in fact I respect them. But I ask that you keep a tone of respect. Still, I will keep your link live even though I disagree with your conclusions.
I’ve known ACORN for many years and, although there may actually be some mismanaged things going on here…I’m not sure yet…I will guarantee you that ACORN itself never set out to commit fraud. And any suggestion that Barack Obama is telling them to do it is just way off base and withiout foundation. John McCain is simply using the kitchen sink technique, but he has a ton of sinks that can be thrown at him and so does Palin – only Obama is more interrested in adressing issues.
And again, you are welcome here any time if you show respect to those of us with different opinions.
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Thanks liberalofdoubt! I love the side-by-side image.
REALLY nice blog by the way!
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 10:42 pm
I didn’t mean to be disrespectful, but I am really unhappy that ACORN is being accused of various cases of voter fraud in this election. I’ve read a lot of different instances of it, from many different states and I do not understand how they could have been forged or interconnected. I think this is a legitimate issue. And even if you support Barack Obama, you should not support a voter registering 72 times and getting paid cash and cigarettes BY ACORN for doing it.
This kind of manipulation of the voting system is not American, and it really should not be tolerated by anyone, in my opinion. What do you think? Did you watch the ACORN video? I know it’s a McCain Ad, but his ads have been hitting the issues pretty well lately.
Barack Obama did pay ACORN $800,000 to register new voters. I think that seems really fishy now that all this Voter Fraud crap is surfacing.
October 14, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Thanks, JABG! I’m quite enjoying your blog as well.
mariestacy, the basic problem is that ACORN is required by law to hand in all voter registration forms, fraudulent or not. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. To say that they are guilty of voter fraud in such a case, when there is no evidence of fraudulent votes being cast (which is different from having fraudulent registration forms turned in), seems to me to be more than a bit unfair.
October 14, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Hi again mariestacy. Thank you for the very reasonable and well presented points.
I agree that no organization should be allowed to register that many people, but I’m willing to wait to hear all the facts before I accuse the whole organization. It’s large and has done many really wonderful things. I do believe there could be some over-zealous and even inappropriate practices things that went on. But I just know enough about them to also know I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Don’t worry… if they are proven wrong, I will be the first to yell at them!
As for Barack paying ACORN…I believe his organization paid a component of ACORN – a consulting subsidiary – to help with some part of getting the vote out. They’ve worked compaigns for years. And with a campaign as large as Obama’s, it’s not surprising ACORN played a role. But no way did Obama’s team direct them to do anything wrong. Really. He is too good and too smart an organizer to pull any obviously detectable shenanigans like this. In fact, although I’m sure you won’t agree, I could just as easily guess that Republican operatives pulled some fast ones to bring down ACORN. They’ve done things like that before. Both sides do – and it’s not right for either side as far as I’m concerned.
But since I know none of this for sure, I’ll just say I will watch and see what comes out. But honestly…if you had ever worked with ACORN as a whole and seen the grateful faces of people they’ve helped – they are known for helping poor or disenfranchised peple with housing, education, livable wage, gulf coast survivors, etc. Please take a moment to check them out and see what they say:
Link to ACORN’s website
Peace in and out!
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 10:58 pm
nice post!!
http://culturedecoded.wordpress.com/2008/10/14/the-importance-of-the-final-presidential-debate/
October 14, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Thanks liberalofdoubt. Eggs zactly!
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 11:04 pm
liberalofdoubt: Well said. But I think what you’re advocating is that we wait until the election to see how many of these fraudulent forms actually turn up in the voting booths. I don’t understand what scam is going on. Maybe it was just to increase the number of alleged new voters. Even THAT would be fine with me. But I really want to make sure that everyone’s vote counts the same. That’s all.
JABG: Thank you for allowing me to talk on your blog. =)
It seems reasonable to wait to get all the facts, but I just don’t want to wait too long. We’ve got 3 weeks until the Election, and we don’t need this tainted with voter fraud. There are enough tough decisions to make on the American public’s part without discouraging them all from voting by revealing that some people have been registered 72 times. It really is very discouraging. If ACORN turns out to be innocent, then I will apologize and we can all forget the whole thing, but until then, I think it’s better to be vigilant and mindful of what’s going on because I’ve already heard about the Obama camp threatening Union voters that if they didn’t vote for him they would lose their job. My brother works at a Steel Union so that hits home. I want all of this vote tampering to stop and for the American people to be able to voice their opinion.
I have no doubt that ACORN has done some good things for communities across the country, but if they have intentionally tampered with this Presidential Election, then they should never be involved in registering voters again. Just my opinion though…
Also, just wondering, have you guys heard of Saul Alinsky and his Rules for Radicals?
October 14, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Nice post pacer521. I agree with your reasoning and conclusion about tomorrow’s last debate. I too assume McCain will look for openings to land his big punch. He and everyone knows he needs it. But most likely, either Obama will handle it effectively or he will chalk it up to one good blow in a sea of missed punches. Since it’s a debate and not boxing, odds are one blow alone won’t do it. Or so I would guess. But as the old saying goes, it’s not over until it’s over.
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Hi again mariestacy!
Agreed that investigations should continue. A reliable vote on both sides is critical for many reasons. I just don’t want to rush to judge and in this case taint a good orgnization with only part of the picture. We shall both watch. A good thing.
Never heard of Saul Alinsky and his Rules for Radicals. Feel free to expound if you like.
JABG
October 14, 2008 at 11:18 pm
JABG,
I just mention it because Michelle Obama has quoted Saul Alinksy publicly in a speech where she mentions that things aren’t how they are or should be..or something. For the exact quote, Mark Levin posts his shows on iTunes for free and he played the soundbite of it in today’s show (10/14).
Saul Alinsky and the ‘Rules for Radicals’ is a 12 step process to take power over a nation. At least that’s what I get from it. I’m gonna post the 12 rules and see what you think. To be honest, it just scares me that anyone running for President thinks of seizing power this way.
RULE 1: “Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.” Power is derived from 2 main sources – money and people. “Have-Nots” must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)
RULE 2: “Never go outside the expertise of your people.” It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don’t address the “real” issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)
RULE 3: “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy.” Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)
RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity’s very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)
RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)
RULE 6: “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They’re doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid “un-fun” activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)
RULE 7: “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.” Don’t become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)
RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
RULE 9: “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.” Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists’ minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)
RULE 10: “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.” Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management’s wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)
RULE 11: “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.” Never let the enemy score points because you’re caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)
RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)
October 14, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I’m sorry. You lost me again. A person quoting someone does not make them a bedfellow. I quoted Casey Stengel once, but it doesn’t make me a ballplayer. But Sarah Palin sleeping with a man (her husband) who actually was promoting the secession of Alaska from the US and who is anti-government at heart (unless she gets to decide what the rules are) is a lot more scary. And if we start to look at all the people John McCain has associated with over the years (including William Timmons, the lobbyist who worked for Saddam Hussein that McCain just appointed to lead his transition team)…
Look, clearly we could go on forever. I think at this point we can at least agree to disagree.
Thanks for a lively discussion.
JABG
October 15, 2008 at 1:33 pm
WOW this Acorn situation is really getting people riled up! I think that’s the purpose of a very deliberate campaign to focus on a decades old non-partisan voter registration organization, discredit it and tie it to Obama. ACORN was one of many organizations in a coalition I worked with in the early ’90s to pass the “Motor Voter” law. You know, that “radical” law that reminded drivers when they move, that they needed to re-register to vote. (That effort, which took nearly 5 years to pass) was opposed by Republican lawmakers and elected officials, every step of the way! ACORN’s focus was always on reaching out to the poorest and most disenfranchised in communities to get them registered – and get out the vote. Many low income people, especially in urban areas, don’t drive. You need thousands of volunteers to reach the millions (still) of eligible but unregistered voters (many young, not in college and poor). So ACORN (as many other groups, including Republicans) pay a “bounty” for every registration card returned. Most of the time it works well. Sometimes, it can result in invalid registrations. ACORN, wisely, like many other groups, does not take it upon themselves to discard these cards, but bundles them and tags them for the local registrars to make the final decision. In all my years of working with groups like ACORN, I NEVER heard of one fraudulent or attempted fraudulent registration.
The days of Saul Alinsky’s influence are over. Unfortunately, the days of voter supression, illegal voter purges and smear campaigns by Republican elections officials and party operatives are at an all time high.
October 15, 2008 at 2:50 pm
GREAT comment, la811! I’m especially interested in your perspective because you had direct experieence helping pass the Motor Voter law and in working with ACORN and other such groups. Unfortunately, when candidates are losing, they often turn to blame and finger-pointing. And they repeat the lies despite the flaws in their logic. Lord knows we’ve had enough of this these last 7 1/2 years. Blame and fear-mongering is so yesterday!
JABG
October 15, 2008 at 5:24 pm
la811,
“They days of Saul Alinsky’s influence are over.”
If only that were true. It’s definitely not though.
JABG,
I know you wanted to end our debate last night so I respected your wishes and didn’t say anything else. Hopefully today is a new day and you don’t mind me posting.
McCain is not losing this election. I’m not sure why the polls reflect a 10 point margin of victory for Barack Obama, but I can assure you that you should not listen to the polls. I am a student of political science and one of the first things my best professor said was “do not rely on the polls. They fluctuate with the way the wind blows.”
Why don’t you like George Bush? If you are going to say the war, then I hope you don’t support aiding any other country under the oppression of a government. Saddam Hussein was oppressive — with or without connections to 9/11. Saddam Hussein was executed by his own people for countless human rights violations.
I don’t like George Bush economics, but that seems to be the only place that Obama and Bush are similar. SPEND! SPEND! SPEND AS MUCH OF OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN! When did we give the government the authority to take our money from our income checks and distribute it vastly among people who did not earn it? That is redistribution of wealth and as beautiful as it sounds in theory, it is hideous in practice. Most of the money gets lost in the bureaucratic process or in politicians’ pockets. Then a small amount of money is given to people who don’t work. Which completely negates any incentive to ACTUALLY work. I don’t understand the liberal mindset here. Maybe you can explain it to me.
Blame is apportioned where it is due. Liberals have absolutely no problem pointing the finger when they’re not to blame. But unfortunately, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been instrumental in showing the true involvement of the Democratic party in the collapse of our financial industry.
The only fear is that we lose the great nation in which we live.
October 15, 2008 at 7:15 pm
As do I. And that’s why I’m, voting for Obama.
mariestacey…I get that we are very different in our take on things – so many things including the Fannie and Freddie story as it’s being framed by McCain (finance and economics are part of my background), but there is no way I’m going to engage in an entire debate on all the reasons we differ on this one post! Oh…and I deleted the links because they activated my spam detector, but if you send me the link to your blog, I will gladly add it to your name so people can visit and read your thoughts.
Peace out and in!
JABG
October 15, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I don’t have the links about Saul Alinsky’s son endorsing Obama on there. I may write a blog about it though, you never know. =)
Have a nice day. Thanks for being respectful.
Funny. I was going to suggest that. You have a strong and deeply felt opinion, even if I disagree with it to the core. I appreciate your respectful atitude too. We could use more of that all around.
And by the way…a lot of people we BOTH wouldn’t agree with have endorsed both McCain and Obama. Stuff like that is so tangential…but I guess I’ll have to come visit your blog to talk about that.
Oh, and thanks for the link to your blog, mariestacey. It’s now attached to your name on all your comments.
JABG
October 18, 2008 at 12:45 pm
What’s the big deal? Saul Alinsky sounds an awful lot like Karl Rove, or any number of political operatives out there on both sides.
October 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Kurt,
Trying to seize control of a nation VIA power, as Saul Alinsky proposes to do is a BAD THING. Are you even an American? Why can’t you people open your eyes? Saul Alinsky is a rabble rouser that seeks to OVERTHROW THE AMERICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT.
Do you see the problem yet? Or are you still lost at sea?
October 18, 2008 at 3:17 pm
JABG,
Please do visit my blog. I would love to hear any thoughts you have on my posts.
Disagreement is the first step to debate which is the first step to truly understanding an argument. We both should understand both sides. =)
October 18, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I’m sorry mariestacey but I must speak up once again. I have quoted many people you might not like and vice versa, but that doesn’t make me a bad person or a person you can’t trust. This is a red herring – a cheap political tactic used throughout the ages when candidates don’t have substance to offer or at least aren’t winning. If you can’t win on substance, throw everything you can at him until something sticks.
But the Obamas are good people. All this stuff is so off the mark. Even John McCain said Barack Obama is a good person – right before he attacked him again. This stuff is being brought up to divert us from the real stuff and sadly it’s working. After much thought and careful research on all sides, I am proudly choosing to trust a country I love to a man I trust 100%…yes, Barack Obama. We could go on forever about Palin’s husband who actively wanted Alaska to secede from my beloved United States or the head of McCain’s transition team who was a lobbyist who helped Saddam Hussein of all people just so he could make oil deals. And of course McCain who tells us he trusts Palin to lead this country, but deosn’t even trust her to handle unscripted interviews or include her in political decisions like when they pulled out of Michigan.
All politicians – Democrat and Republican – meet people on their way up (and down) who may at some time have radical views. And all thinking people at some time quote or admire radicals or people who had radical ideas. Believe me, you have too, even if you might not know it. By the way, our founding fathers were quite radical. And so were some of our greatest poets, artists and authors.
But Barack Obama is one of the most level-headed, steady-handed, kind-hearted intelligent politicians I’ve ever seen and he is the right man to lead us through these choppy seas. The McCain team has been instigating hate speech and mob-behavior based on lots of little so-called facts that if you follow them through to logical conclusions (and most of them are actually unfounded if you check the facts), absolutely have no substance or bearing on how Barack Obama will lead this country.
I wish you would really think about all this hate talk and inuendo that the right wing radio hosts are filling our heads with. It has nothing to do with who Barack Obama really is. Oooooooh! He helped improve education and served on a Board with a now much respected community man who was once a radical and said angry things (even his 9-11 statement has been waaaay misquoted by the way).
I’m sorry. But this stuff is scaring me horribly. Angry booing mobs being incited just to win the vote is beyond responsible or acceptable to me. My family was killed because of hate speech and stupid inuendo. This is dangerous and not what I want to see from a president. Blaming behavior and finger-pointing is not leadership. And I pray with all my heart that people can see the difference.
JABG
October 18, 2008 at 10:41 pm
At last something Republicans AND Democrats both can agree about:
McCain’s Calls Draw Bipartisan Criticism
Not only are these robo calls disgusting, studies show they actually alienate the people who get the calls and are therefore mostly ineffective! This isn’t the first year campaigns have used them, but oh how I hope it’s the last.
JABG
October 19, 2008 at 1:23 am
You don’t understand.
That’s why you’re not fighting with us.
I can’t convince you if you won’t listen to the facts. This is our problem this election. It seems every time the facts are brought to the table, people are so appalled that they instead try to attack the messenger. It’s a cheap tactic used by someone with no oppositional argument.
We are the American people. I don’t know why you are so hesitant to be critical of the government, but the people are supposed to control the government. That means we are to speak out about issues, POSITIVE and NEGATIVE. You can’t run from all the negative. I know there is A LOT of negative about Obama, but that is mostly the fault of the DNC not the Republicans who are pointing it out now.
Don’t run from the truth. It just makes us all worse off when facts are ignored for the sake of political correctness or ‘fairness.’ It is what it is and you should call it how it actually is and not how TV makes it seem.
I don’t propose to know John McCain personally and you shouldn’t propose to know the Obamas personally, especially after Mrs Obama’s remarks to API (an organization with absolutely no logical reason to lie). There is no sense in this willful ignorance. I’m sorry but we are down to the wire now and if people don’t start telling the truth, the Obamas never will.
We, McCain voters, do not WANT to attack Obama, but we have no choice. We can color it all flowery and beautiful, but that’s not the way it should be pictured. We can open our eyes now and choose to vote in McCain, or we can vote in Obama and have one of the most violent internal struggles this country has faced since the Civil War. Socialism is not freedom so Americans will not submit to being controlled by the government. It will not go well. No matter how flowery you think you can make it.
October 19, 2008 at 11:13 am
Colin Powell is a bright, respected leader and loyal Republican who loves our country deeply and understands the issues in a way neither you or I ever will. He says it better than I could in his endorsement of Barack Obama:
Colin Powell Voting for Barack Obama
And now I ask kindly and respectfully mariestacey, that we stop. You’ve had your say on my blog. I believe I’ve allowed you to say more than most people would when I find what you say so offensive, so misinformed (or partially informed) and I believe the team you support would be a tragedy for this country. I totally get that you feel the same about who I support!
Politics is never a science. We can only make our best judgments. I make mine based on a long lifetime of diverse experience, many hardships and many great joys, and having voted for both Republicans and Democrats. We clearly disagree to the core as I’ve said before.
I wish you well. And I wish the country well no matter who wins. I am just sad that the divide is so great and the anger so deep. The beauty of this country is that we have been able to come together many times despite differences of opinion. I pray that is the case this time.
Namaste.
JABG